Dr Asiel Adán Sánchez

Introduction

Host: This was recorded on the lands of the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung and the Bunurong peoples of the Kulin Nation.

[evening sounds of insects fades in]

Karina (Mum): Ay, mijo, cuando camines por la calle, con la pesadumbre de los nombre que no te pertenecen,

Asiel: when you walk down the street, with the heaviness of names that do not belong to you,

Karina (Mum): recuerda, que fuiste hecha de mujeres que han pintado flores en el rostro de calaveras por generaciones.

Asiel: remember you were made from women who have been painting flowers on the faces of skulls for years.

[theme music comes in]

Host: Welcome to Stories of Coming Out and Coming Home, where we share everyday stories of families from a culturally and linguistically diverse communities on the journey of embracing the LGBTQ+ loved ones. Showing how their support embrace, strengthens family bonds, strengthens cultural connection, and enables them to thrive and flourish. Stories of belonging told in our own words, our own languages shared with our communities.

Host: Stories of coming out and coming home.

Asiel: My name is Asiel Adán Sánchez I was born in Jojutla, Morelos, Mexico. I identify as non-binary and queer. My pronouns are they/them.

Host: And you're also a doctor. A GP who works and specializes in sexual health, transgender and gender diverse health care, and a published poet. A real Renaissance figure, which we'll chat more about later. But first, I want to say how pleased I am that you and your family is the first participants in this community storytelling project. We met each other through a bit more than a year ago through your partner, Tony, who is also a long time friend of mine. He's actually introduced me to a lot of people in the queer Asian community in Sydney as well. And, and for a while, I heard a lot about you, but haven't met you because you were living mostly in Melbourne at that time. And I think we properly got to know each other when Tony brought you to the premiere of my film last year. I think we were both straight away felt like there was a lot of commonality between us. Because we kind of both work in a more science based field; you being a doctor, and I'm an engineer. But then we also spend a lot of our time and energy on our artistic pursuits. But also the area that we both explore that intersectional experience of being from diasporic community and being queer.

Discovering their gender and sexual identity across cultures

Host: Now, before we go too deep into the your poems, I want to hear more about your experience growing up, discovering your sexuality and your gender identity, and how it related to the cultures that you were brought up in. Because I actually don't think I've ever found out that full story from you.

Asiel: Yeah, that's a really good question and something that I keep exploring and re-exploring and kind of coming back to, and making sense of partly because a lot of the discourse around coming out and gender and sexuality is very westernized and very anglicised. So I feel like it has taken time for me to actually be able to integrate these two aspects of myself and where they came from and what cultural elements informed them.

Asiel: And I think for a very long time, I was really distanced from my cultural background and heritage. And I had this notion or this feeling that I could be one or the other, but not both.

Host: Did you find that when you were growing up in Mexico as well? As well as here?

Asiel: Yeah, that's right. And I think in Mexico it's changed a lot, I think, nowadays. But I felt like when I was growing up, everything was unspoken. So, so there was queerness around and queerness that perhaps I could also recognize. But it was very unspoken. There's the, you know, world famous Juan Gabriel. Where, who when he was asked about his sexuality and his queerness, you know, he just replied what’s seen so obviously, doesn't need to be stated. You know, if it could just be out in silence and could exist without being kind of spoken about.

Host: Like people recognize that without it being spoken or explicitly spoken about?

Asiel: Yeah, that that’s right. And that obviously clashed a lot with Western notions of, you know, coming out and pride and being visible and being out there and etc., etc.. So, so it took quite a bit of time for me to reconcile those two elements. And I remember the first time going back to Mexico after being, I think, ten...

Host: When did you arrive? Migrate to Australia?

Asiel: We arrived in 2007. So at that stage I was 17, almost 18. So let's say my all my formative years and childhood and youth and growing up, was very much based in, in Mexico.

Host: And did you kind of or you have a good understanding of your sexuality and your gender identity when you were in Mexico?

Asiel: I, I don't think I did. No, I don't think I did. I, I remember feeling like the penny dropped, like quite literally, as soon as we moved into, into Australia and just waking up one day and going like, oh, okay, that's what that is. And that's, that's what it means.

Host: Were you were you still in high school at that point?

Asiel: I was yeah, I think I must have been in year 12 at that stage. So fairly, fairly late in the piece. Yeah.

Host: What about when you were kind of when you were younger and you mentioned how there was that. Is that a Mexican, artist that said, were you aware of that when you were a child in Mexico?

Asiel: No, no, no, in the sense that I wasn't, let's say I didn't see myself within that narrative, I suppose, that was something that I...

Host: That existing within the Mexican culture.

Asiel: Yeah. That's right, because of course, there's this, like a young person, you just don't clock it necessarily, even though there's something there that you identify with. It was just this kind of vague, unspoken thing that felt familiar. But I couldn't express why or how. You know.

Host: That's interesting, because, for me, I was born in Hong Kong, and I moved to Australia when I was eight, and what was really interesting is there's a lot of this discourse out there that says, it's a Western idea that's introduced to a lot of us, to us for communities. But for me, actually, it's funny because in Hong Kong, growing up there is this term for, for gay people is just called same sex affair.

Host: Literally. Yeah, yeah. So when you hear it, you automatically know what it means. And no one needs to explain to you what it is.

Asiel: Yes.

Host: And people talk about it. So for me, the language was always the not because of the English or Australian or Western background, but for me because of like the Cantonese or Chinese generally. Language. I had a, I had language for it very early on, and it was completely not because of Western influence. So yeah, it's interesting to hear kind of that difference between your experience and my experience.

Host: So but so you were aware of kind of this existence of queerness within the Mexican culture, not necessarily that you identified with it or you thought you were part of it.

Asiel: Yeah. Yeah. That's right. It was very, very vague. Again, it felt familiar in a way, but I couldn't tell you why it felt familiar. You know, just it was just kind of there.

Host: Did you feel like, when you came to Australia, you kind of felt when you were exposed to the language around queerness or LGBTQ issues, that's why you explored it a bit more? Or was it because an internal thing that your, mentally or physically, you're like, you were... just it was just something you had to explore because of that?

Asiel: I think coming to Australia and finding kind of LGBTQ+ communities here gave me a language that I didn't have access to necessarily in Mexico and Spanish. So it was definitely, let's say, an entry point. The thing that I came to realize as time went by is that that entry point and that language didn't make space for the other elements of myself, the cultural aspects of myself; what was there in Mexico that I still very much missed and very much loved. And all the sudden I found myself removed from, or alienated from because, you know, a lot of the queer community here in both Melbourne and Sydney, are just very kind of white spaces.

Host: Yeah, yeah, I, I definitely know where you're coming from with that. And definitely for the Chinese community, diaspora community especially, I think, even more so than the Chinese queer experience back in Asia, is that it feels more like queerness is a Western thing, completely not related to your cultural to your ‘Chinese-ness’. Yeah. But, just coming back to that period of time, how long do you think it took you to kind of realize your sexuality or gender identity?

Host: And before you could really kind of confirm to yourself, that's who I am.

Asiel: Not very in the sense that I, once the penny dropped... I realized that that's what it was, and that's what that kind of word or concept kind of spoke to my experience. And then it was just a matter of like, yes, okay, that's what it is. I didn't necessarily have a period of struggling with myself.

Asiel: It was more, funnily enough, struggling with other people's perception of me because, again, growing up both in Mexico and in Australia, I had this sense that, I didn't quite belong or I moved or I express myself in a way that wasn't necessarily, expected of masculinity. And I felt that, again, alienation or separation or judgment.

Host: This was back in Mexico.

Asiel: Yeah. That's right, back in Mexico. And, I guess even here as well. And I couldn't quite understand why. But once, let's say once I understood, there wasn't any resistance, let's say internally, to say, okay, that's, yeah you know, ‘queer’ or whatever else it might be. The self-acceptance, I think, came pretty easily once I had that language to express it.

Asiel: And then same for, let's say, the gender side of things. Once I realized that, you know, let's say all aspects of myself included, you know, feminine aspects and masculine aspects across, I embrace those fairly quickly, and I allowed myself to express them regardless of what other people thought. So, yeah, like doing makeup or engaging in feminine dress or engaging in feminine ways of expression was very natural to me.

Asiel: What again, came more of a challenge was trying to figure out why other people didn't see that as a natural way of being, or a default way of being, I suppose.

Host: Did you... would you say your upbringing or your childhood was quite free in terms of gender expression that contributed to this kind of ease that you had?

Asiel: No, that's definitely, definitely not. I think I grew up in a fairly gendered and, and kind of traditional environment, because we were from a fairly small town in Mexico, we're not from, let's say, any big cities or particularly any progressive areas of Mexico. And I do recall multiple instances of being corrected for how I express myself or how I moved or.

Host: From within your family? Or...

Asiel: Yeah, yeah that's right. And with friends as well.

Host: Yeah I noticed a few of your poems that referred to that experience.

Asiel: Yeah. That, that that's right. And let's say friends as well. But this was when I was, when I was younger, I didn't understand why that was the case. Again, to me, it was a very natural way of being. So, I couldn't understand why that that was wrong. I just understood or felt that it was wrong.

Asiel: But I couldn't have told you why.

Host: Did that cause a bit of anguish or despair or hurt when you experienced that as a kid?

Asiel: Yeah, for sure, in the sense that I, again, could, could tell you that there was something wrong, but I couldn't understand what was wrong. So that led to this kind of feeling that there was something not quite right within my body. That took me a long, long time to kind of express and figure out why.

Asiel: And, let's say once it all clicked, it was like, oh okay, well that's what it is, you know. And now it's very much…

Host: Was it sort of a liberating realization?

Asiel: Yes, in the sense that I understood where those thoughts and feelings came from. No, in the sense that you still experience those thoughts and feelings. And you kind of have to sit with them and kind of work through them. But at least now there's an insight of not getting caught up by them, if that makes sense.

Host: Did you find... because for me personally,

Host: I actually found that when I was growing up in Hong Kong specifically, I know that other Chinese people have different experience, that gender, kind of performative gender expression was much less… was actually much less restrictive or limited in my upbringing.

Host: And I found that coming to Australia, all of a sudden, I found the Anglo, specifically Anglo kind of expectations of gendered behavior to be quite restricting. And, and then it's kind of, what gets folded into that is kind of the kind of racist ideas about Asian men or being not masculine. So I, it's very complicated for a lot of Asian people, I find, because it's not just kind of upbringing, it's also a racial aspect folded into it.

Host: Just, yes, curious to see how for your experience, it was kind of more in Mexico that you found it kind of a more prescriptive gender expression or behavior in roles in Australia.

Asiel: Yeah. Yes. With the caveat that I think within Mexican culture and history, just as there is gender normativity, there's also a lot of space to undermine and expand kind of notions of gender and what gender is.

Host: Do you think a lot of it is actually

Host: European colonization ideas more than kind of traditional, indigenous ideas.

Asiel: Yeah. Well that's, let's say a complex question and a very, enriching one in the sense that, there's definitely traditions within Mexico. And, you know, the very famous example is Zapotec communities, who have this quote unquote kind of third gender, called ‘muxe‘. And within the notion of muxe, what means to be muxe, is just so much more expansive than let's say, trans, non-binary, gender diverse notions of what it means to be, you know, gender diverse, in the sense that, you know, muxe kind of speaks to almost an embodied kind of femininity, regardless of whether that person, you know, has medical affirmation or surgical affirmation or presents

Asiel: in this way or the other way. It's very much about how you feel internally, but also the role that you play within that community and within that culture throughout. So kind of in a way, the English LGBTQ+ community, was a bit of a stepping stone to, to rediscover and reconnect with those elements that perhaps growing up, were still very hidden to me or were inaccessible to me.

Asiel: And, you know, I remember going back to Mexico after being in Australia for ten years and like, stepping into a queer space and just being so overwhelmed with joy because it felt like all the bits of myself were just there. And all the people, the shared experience, even the art on the wall spoke to, to my own experience.

Asiel: You know, we're a very Catholic country and in this particular, like, queer space, it's Catholic themed. So you walk in and there's, you know, murals of, two priests in, in, in kind of a homoerotic type of insinuation, and you know two nuns in a very, you know, kind of sapphic depiction. And it spoke to all of those things that were there growing up,

Asiel: but I couldn't really express. And all of a sudden I have this kind of shared, vivid language for it. So reconciling those two elements was so…

Host: You didn't necessarily need to search for it? It just came popping out of you… at you, sorry, when you returned?

Asiel: Oh, yes. Yeah, absolutely. Like, once was once I returned to Mexico and I had an opportunity to reconnect with, you know, my country and culture throughout. One of the first people that I reconnected with was a friend from primary school who had also very recently come out as non-binary. And we were chatting about all of our experiences growing up and, recognizing that kind of we were there all the time that it just… we didn't necessarily have a frame of reference for connecting until, until then, you know.

Host: I feel like we can talk about this forever, but let's talk more about your experience with your family.

Host: How did you go about inviting your family into this kind of new understanding of yourself?

Asiel: Yeah.

Host: I don't want to use that word ‘coming-out’, because I feel like that kind of sets a very specific, Western narrative to it. So want you to just express that however you want.

Asiel: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I you can appreciate that because it does kind of problematise the way that we navigate those relationships. And I think Mom and Dad, I think, exemplify that quite well in the sense that within I think a few months of realizing throughout, I just told my mom, and it was, fairly at least I remember it being a fairly emotional kind of, statement.

Asiel: And it felt like a lot of these feelings that I had kept inside all of a sudden came pouring out. And it just was what it was. And I think, as with any kind of queer child, the fear of rejection, of parental rejection is always there. So I think a lot of what was expressed and a lot of the overwhelm, a lot of the big emotions were in a way that fear. And (I) thankfully had a very kind of supportive journey on that, in that aspect.

Asiel: With my dad, on the other hand, it operated in a more, let's say, typically Mexican or kind of Latino narrative in the sense that I didn't actually tell him until, I think, ten years down the track. So I kept it hidden from view. And that was a very conscious decision. Again, part of it due to fear of parental rejection and him not understanding where I was coming from.

Asiel: What I can say is once I did kind of express this, and I did express it relatively kind of matter of fact, throughout I didn't really give him an opportunity to, to respond, per se. I just kind of put it out on the table and, thankfully, again, he took it. He took his time to digest whatever he had to digest across. And then it was never spoken about again, but it was never challenged or questioned or pushed back.

Asiel: It was just kind of, again, an unspoken thing that was there. It was on the table, and it was plainly visible and stated. And again, we both know that we know, but it's not necessarily something that's talked about.

Host: Have you… has he read your poems?

Asiel: He's definitely a witness in my poems in the sense that he's come to poetry readings. So he definitely knows what the poetry is about. Whether or not he's responded to them…

Host: Did you see, like…… is there any signs from, I don't know, his facial expression when you were reading them or like afterwards his behavior, do you think that has clicked to some of the childhood experiences?

Asiel: I think it's similar to, kind of, the coming out experience; I think it's all navigated in silences. The different thing about it is that the silences became softer, in the sense…

Host: Less tension in those silences?

Asiel: Yeah, absolutely. In the sense that when, when, when growing up, there was that sensation of, you know, coldness and, and again, that kind of fear of rejection in that, sense of, you know, kind of difference. And as time goes by, there's, there's still silence, but it's very, soft. There's the space in there for, you know, my partner to, you know, come to dinner or for, you know, small talks here and there and for moments of acknowledgment that still operate within silence but don't have such…

Host: May not be verbal but it's expressed its own way. I think that's very common for a lot of us (in) diaspora communities. It's not necessarily explicitly spoken, but I think what you choose to spend your time witnessing your child (doing), says a lot about what you accept and support. It may not be an explicit verbal affirmation, but whether you show up whether you support in that way can mean a lot in our cultures.

Host: But I just want to contrast that to your relationship with your mom. I've only met this afternoon, but I can see how warm that relationship is. And, yeah, I'm glad that you had kind of that really supportive and warm embracing reaction to your coming out. And it's been a very affirming relationship and experience for you.

Asiel: Yeah. Yes, it has been and I think part of it is also growing up, my mom was also opposed to, let's say, the queer community in the sense that other close family members growing up, you know, she witnessed, the HIV crisis kind of go through, even though (it was) in this small town in Mexico, you know, and she witnessed the treatment of people, and what they had to go through.

Asiel: So I don't think it was something new. It's something that had also been part of her lived experience, I suppose, growing up.

Host: I remember growing up in Hong Kong, late 80s, early 90s, there was a real air of hysteria around AIDS and HIV. And I think what you observe, your families, how they respond to those issues really informs you about whether they will be accepting of you. And were there any key moments in your childhood in observing how your mom would react to these issues that kind of, told you how she would respond to you coming out?

Asiel: I think it was more hearing the stories about how she navigated this, yeah, I guess close relationship with a family member. Because there was never I never got the sense that there was rejection. I got the sense that…

Host: Oh was there another family member that was part of the queer community?

Asiel: Yeah that's right. [conversation with their mum off mic: Alfredo qué era tu primo?]. Yeah. her cousin, who were growing up around the same kind of age. I vaguely remember again attending… actually being quite young and attending the funeral for this, you know, family member. But I must have been, again, quite young, if around at all.

Asiel: And again, I never got the sense that there was rejection. I got the sense of sadness for how he was treated. So there was that warmth, I suppose, or at least that compassion and that understanding of, you know, who he was had nothing to do… And his suffering and what he lived through had nothing to do with who he was.

Asiel: It was more about how he was treated, that shaped a lot of that negative experience.

Host: So this was when… how old were you around?

Asiel: Oh, I must have been at the very like… when he passed away, I must have been quite young, like, I don't know, 3 or 4 or something. If at all… I might be again misremembering.

Host: But it is a... I can tell that it's a very vivid experience.

Asiel: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And certainly let's say when I was a little bit older, but still within that space of childhood, like again, I can remember my mom mentioning those experiences, or those kind of histories, so let's say when…

Host: So she always spoke with compassion and understanding?

Asiel: Yeah. I would, I would say at least it had a positive feeling around how this was… what had happened. So when it came time to… when it was time to come out, I had that to fall back to, or at least that kind of history, to fall back to, and I knew that, again, it wasn't something that was new or that she hadn't experienced or got exposure to before.

[music interlude]

Asiel's mother joins the conversation (a story of past family loss)

(apologies for using incorrect pronouns for Asiel)

Host: I think that's a good time to invite your mum to this conversation. Welcome Karina. You've been listening to what Asiel had said just off camera before. Is there anything you'd like to say to Asiel?

Karina (mum): Yes. (Asiel) got my attention (when) she mentioned, he mentioned (that) when we lost my cousin. Freddie. It was… it was very…. I was surprised that he still remember…. remember that fact when he passed away…. So…

Host: Feel free to use Spanish.

Karina (mum): Okay. Me llamó mucho la atención de que Asiel haya recordado cuando murió mi primo y que como dice él, fue un acontecimiento muy triste, él era de mi edad y quisiera contarte la historia, porque nosotros crecimos juntos, toda la primaria, era como mi hermano,

Karina (mum): cuando...él iba en la secundaria , él era un poco afeminado, muy afeminado para ser hombre lo cual era inaceptable en esa época, entonces mi tío o sea, su papá, dijo que él era así porque se juntaba mucho conmigo, porque jugábamos siempre juntos, porque él había aprendido esos modales de mi parte, y entonces dijo, no se va a juntar más con Karina, los tenemos que separar porque necesita ser hombre,

Asiel: As my mom was saying, it was something that kind of shook the family, in the sense that Mom and Freddie, who is her cousin, who grew up together. They were the same age.

Asiel: So they grew up together all throughout primary school and Freddie was very effeminate and, let's say, he behaved or performed femininity in ways that weren't kind of acceptable for, you know, young men in our small town. So, my mom's uncle, Freddie’s dad, blamed this on the fact that he spent too much time with his cousins, who were girls, and therefore needed to separate them,

Asiel: so he kind of would grow up to be more masculine and to be a man. And that's where we're up to.

Karina (mum): fue muy díficil para mí que nos separaran y yo no entendía nada. jajaja... Yo decía siempre ha sido así. O sea... por qué? Porqué lo tienen que alejar. Porqué lo tratan de educar. Porqué lo tratan de cambiar de una manera que tiene que ser de acuerdo a los estándares de mi tío.

Karina (mum): Entonces yo pienso que también fue difícil para él porque él empezó a juntarse, vamos a decirlo, con malas compañías, entre comillas o sea personas. Que obviamente con otras personas de la, de la comunidad, LGBT+. Y bueno, empezó a tomar y empezó a tener unos problemas. Nos juntamos de vez en cuando para ir a bailar a la disco y me acuerdo que tomaba mucho.

Asiel: As she was saying...

Asiel: After they were separated, which my mom at that age couldn't understand why he had to be separated or why he had to kind of conform to what my uncle perceived was, you know, the correct way of being or the correct way of performing masculinity. You know, she couldn't understand why that had to be done and why that had to be the case.

Asiel: And she's reflecting on the fact that it probably also had a big impact on him as a person. As they kind of grew apart, from this separation, he started, I guess, exploring and being close to other aspects of the LGBTQ+ community, who, let's say, were also a bit fraught. There were some substance issues, and as they grew older, she recalls going out with them.

Asiel: And he would kind of just drink a lot or drink in excess to, you know I guess, cope with what was happening.

Host: And how much contact did he have with his family at that point?

Karina (mum): He was six old. Asiel was 6 years old.

Host: Oh I mean Freddie.

Asiel: Después de que los separaron, se mantuvo cerca de la familia? Cómo cuál era el contacto que tuvo con la familia?

Karina (mum): No, no siempre vivió con mi tía y con mi tío. He always was in the family in the in the nuclear (family). But he was never accepted because I remember my aunty try to telling him, “don't do that” or “please behave”. Well, he cannot be like... like he wanted to be.

Karina (mum): Okay. I was really sad because I don't understand why. If her mom, like, is her mom is the person who needs to protect him. I can imagine how he felt. I can imagine so also my uncle. He was a big problem. He never accepted that he was gay. Never ever. So, from my point of view, she suffered a lot.

Karina (mum): He suffered a lot. I am talking about around the 80s. At the end of the day... he died. He died from (suicide). He (died by) suicide, when he was 30 years old. Yeah, I think... he was. I think he didn’t have the education that he should. It was another...

Karina (mum): It was a very closed form of thinking (about) how you should be.

[music interlude]

Host: So coming back to Asiel, when he was (they were*) growing up, did you have any kind of indication that he (they*) may be queer?

Karina (mum): Ah yes, I have so many…. Yeah, I think because it's probably a mum’s intuition yeah. I remember when he was in kindergarten, he had a friend. I don't know if you remember your friend Júlio César.

Asiel: Oh no; another one.

Karina (mum): He was three years old.

Asiel: Yeah, yeah.

Karina (mum): When I pick him up from the kindergarten, the teacher used to say, oh I don't know why he always wants to be with Júlio César. And I thought, hmmmm sounds very suspicious. Yeah. He was… I noticed he was feeling attracted (to) men. For example, my daughter is very flirtatious; you see when she's trying to be nice with the opposite sex. He was vaguely the same,

Karina (mum): But for the same sex.

Host: That's interesting. But you didn’t realise this about yourself? Or… Are you surprised to hear that?

Asiel: I'm I am, and I'm not, in a way, in the sense that I again, kind of struggle to kind of pick up on like why people's perceptions are the way they are. And in my head, it was just that it was just me, I suppose. And it's been interesting, kind of, reflecting back on these experiences, and again, having that feeling that there was difference there, but not knowing why or what was the context, you know? It was a sense of rejection or being treated differently without knowing why.

Asiel: And that, let's say, growing up led to a sense of hurt and shame, but not knowing why there was hurt and shame, if that makes sense. So part of me is not surprised. But the other part of me is also a bit perplexed.

Host: And were there other signs that you saw about his (their*) gender identity of being non-binary.

Karina (mum): I suspect something was not quite ‘right’. I think it was….

Karina (mum): one period of time that he was very… isolated. He used to be in their room all the time.

Host: As in, not quite right in terms of mental health?

Karina (mum): Exactly. Wearing black all the time. I said, why you are wearing black all the time? I think he was trying to find himself. Yeah. Try to struggle with all these things you have to… to cope with. Yeah. But I didn't know what to do.

Host: Well it sounds like your behavior or your compassion towards your cousin already kind of spoke a lot to Asiel in that he knew that he was safe with you. He didn't… He never doubted that he would be safe with you. But in Mexico, so you never pushed him or kind of tried to nudge Asiel as to talking about this issue, when you were back in Mexico, even though you kind of had some kind of inkling that there could be something

Host: that was upsetting or distressing to him?

Karina (mum): No. No idea. Yeah. Also, my husband is very strict. Um… can I say in….

Host: Yes please say it in Spanish.

Karina (mum): Yes, because I lost my… Mi esposo es un poco rígido. Un poco estricto. Ah muy muy apegado. A sus tradiciones. A las reglas. A las cosas como deberían ser y no lo culpo. Porque porque... Mi suegro es el típico macho mexicano, patriarca. Que solo sus ideas son las correctas y las cosas son así porque así deben de ser. Porque así a sido. En todas las generaciones.

Karina (mum): y quieras o no os vemos influenciados. Por éstas creencias. Por ésta forma de pensar. Siento que es como una sombra que nos pesa. Porque si es muy duro. Mi suegro si es muy muy muy estricto. Muy hombre segundo él. Qué obviamente mi esposo.

Karina (mum): Creció con todas estás cuestiones , viendo todo ésto.

Asiel: As my mom was saying, my dad had very rigid ways of thinking and kind of seeing the world, and, you know, things are as they should be. So it was very difficult to have those conversation. And as she was saying, this kind of comes from his upbringing because my grandfather, my dad’s dad, is very kind of typical traditional, kind of patriarchal, who, you know it’s his way of thinking is the only way of thinking.

Asiel: And it should be that way, because that's the way that it has been, you know, for generations. And he is very rigid and inflexible, I guess, in his way of seeing the world, even until now. So she can't blame or put fault on how he was raised and how he was influenced by, you know, the context in which he grew up, which is, again, very traditional rural kind of Mexico.

Karina (mum): Yes, I need to add that my husband has been changing a lot; it’s not saying that he is like (he was) years ago. I think education is the key. Education definitely is the key. It’s where Asiel showed me how to learn more about the LGBTQ+ community. And I think… we are afraid of the unknown. We (find it) hard to accept the things that we perceive like… is not normal.

Karina (mum): I hate this word ‘normal’, because what is ‘normal’? Oh, my goodness…

Host: Yes, I try to never use (the word) ‘normal’. Hahahaa

Karina (mum): Yeah yeah yeah yeah… I also think it's not a good ‘word’.

Karina (mum): The education has helped us a lot to accept Asiel’s preference… I prefer to say this in Spanish...

Karina (mum): Okay. Pienso, que, la educación es clave para comprender a nuestros hijos y a la comunidad LGBT+. Si la gente tuviera acceso a éstos recursos y se interesará un poquito más de lo que es, comprender a sus hijos, o sea. Ahorita hay mucha información, que antes no había. Entonces pienso que no hay excusa cómo para no aceptar que nuestros hijos pertenecen a la comunidad LGBT+. So pienso que, Asiel ha hecho un buen papel en éste aspecto de educarnos, en todo éste proceso.

Host: Was this something that Asiel brought to you or... brought material for you? Or did you go out and try to find... seek out resources for yourself?

Karina (mum): He brought resources. Yeah, he would have resources. Yeah.

Host: I think from observing how you showed compassion to Freddy, your cousin, I think he knew that you would have an open mind and he could have an honest, communication with you and that you would have the mindset to encounter the education and learn from the resources.

Host: I think there's a lot of kids or young people out there in our diaspora communities* where we feel like... we feel like, I don't know if it's always true, that their parents or our parents are already gonna react in a negative way that we never, kind of, make the effort to try to make them understand. And I, can 100% understand why they would be like that, but that's why it's so important

Host: for parents... for you to have kind of expressed a position of openness and compassion. So that your... so that Asiel knew that he (they*) could come to you.

Host: I want to come back to how Asiel shared their sexuality and gender with you. What can you remember about that experience?

Karina (mum): I remember I was cooking, I was... [cutting sound] hahaha, you know, with my onion, and Asiel came and said, “Mum, I need to talk with you”. I was in a hurry, but for me, my priority always had been my kids. And I put my cooking aside, and I said, “okay. Soy todo oídos, -dijo el burro?”. And he tell me, “Mum, I am gay, I am...” And I remember he started to cry and I said, “oh mà, are you sure?

Karina (mum): But I felt like, oh my goodness, he's suffering. Obviously as a mum, when you see your son suffering, you suffer as well. So at the beginning was like a cascade of emotions. What is going to happen to him? He's going to get married? He's going to have a kids? He's going to have a family? Like he always dreamed for family.

Karina (mum): And this is the thing I was worried about. I never worry about her preference or his preference. My only worry was if he was able to be happy. I saw Asiel very happy now that you see how much love he has with his partner. I have never seen an another person in another couples. I am really proud of him.

Karina (mum): I'm very satisfied how he has been growing up in all the aspects of his life. Yeah the worries disappear.

Host: Yeah. I think from my experience, a lot of Chinese families, they will say, you know, yes, I want you to be happy.

Host: I want you to be healthy and successful. But… I think the best way for you to be that, is to not be gay or openly identify as gay. How did you, like for yourself in Asiel’s case, how did you come to realizing that being open in and… Asiel openly identifying and living a life that is, you know, true to his gender and sexual identity, what's the best life that he could live?

Karina (mum): mmm... you see him every day. He he's been authentic because he really had to wear a mask all the time. And not be yourself. I noticed that he is doing what makes him happy. And he doesn't bother about the opinion of... people's opinion. Also, I don't bother for me because at* one point if I go to Mexico, that is, they are very very discriminate against

Karina (mum): the the... queer people; really really... I have to choose between people or my son. So obviously I choose my son. If they say whatever they want to say, I don't mind. Okay? I need to protect my son against everything. Hahahaa

Host: Hahahaa. And did you notice kind of a change in your relationship before and after he shared that about himself to you?

Karina (mum): We were... we were more close. Definitely this fact... Nos unió [united us]

Asiel: And I think I also didn't give options in a way, in the sense that I was… I felt like I'm never necessarily compromised myself to fit into expectations. Once I guess that knowledge was there, was just there. But yeah, it did start to kind of create more of a relationship and kind of build those bridges.

Asiel: Because we had just moved to Australia, so I think for a very long time there wasn't any other family around, you know? So it's been a process of also rebuilding those kind of connections. And not only with other people but also with like dad and my sister and then family back home in Mexico and navigating the whole process with them.

Asiel: And... building...

Host: How long before like... So you told your mom when you were around, like, when you first went to university? Or...

Asiel: No. I would have been like, yeah, like 18 maybe?

Karina (mum): Yeah, yeah. He was still in the last year of high school. Around, yeah, 18.

Asiel: Yes.

Host: And clearly before you introduced any partners to your...

Karina (mum): We were accomplices.

Asiel: Yes.

Karina (mum): Like I said, partner in crime. 

Host: Hahahaa

Karina (mum): Yeah we were partner in crime, because I was who was driving (him) to see his partner.

Host: Hahahaa

Asiel: Oh, yeah. That's I mean, yeah, that's when I was like 20 ish. Yeah that's right... with Josh. Forgot about that...

[music interlude]

Asiel reads their poem "Make-Up Lessons"

Asiel: Make-up Lessons

                 ay, mijo,

 a mother's love

 sublimates violence

 the way winter

 gives birth to spring

                 don't you know?

 your body

 is not a war.

                 here,

 start with the foundation;

 begin by erasing 

 any trace of hurt 

 the world 

 might have 

 left on you.

 imagine a face 

 with no borders,

 quiet as a field 

 with no names in it.

carve your checks

 from axiote, mole

 rojo.

 repaint the history 

 of our country

 as if it never belonged 

 to the range

 of violent men.

               but mijo,

 a brush 

 can be as violent 

 as a knife;

 treat it with care.

 you will soon learn

 that the pain

 of walking in heels

 is the pain

 of learning

 to stand tall.

 that a broken lip

 deserves to be

 dressed in red

 as though it's never

 kissed the pavement.

 some days

 this dress will

 feel so bone-close

 and heavy,

 you will mistake

 its stitches

 for skin.

                 ay, mijo,

 when you walk

 down the street

 with the heaviness of names

 that do not belong to you

 remember

 you were made

 from women

 who have

 been painting

 flowers on the

 faces of skulls

                 for years.

Host: I remember when I first read that, it was so moving and it was so powerful, yet tender. It just really moved me. So do you remember when you first read Asiel’s poem? This particular poem?

Karina (mum): Yes. I was really surprised because I felt so honoured, that she mentioned his mom. The way that she mentioned. Because, he loves to do the makeup. And I said, I can teach you. Hahaa.

Host: Hahahahaaa

Karina (mum):  Yes he grew up beautiful in a poem that really was... break my heart of happiness. mmmm... I really enjoyed alot. It was...

Host: Both heartbreaking and so affirming and… Yeah, so affirming and cathartic, I think, to hear. Actually when I read it, it kind of reminded me of this memory that I’d almost forgotten for many years, that my mom used to put makeup on me when I was like six, seven. And then also when I did theatre in high school, she would always be one of the moms that volunteered to do the makeup on us.

Host: And because I went to an all boys school, I often played a female part.

Asiel and Mum: Hahahaa Okay. Okay.

Host: So yeah, really just like, brought back all these memories for me when I read it. And… I feel like the voice, the voice in that is so interesting. I feel like it works in so many different ways."

Host: Like it feels like your mom saying that to you, but it also feels like you saying to yourself or you saying it to other gender diverse people as well.

Asiel: Yeah. And I mean, I think the process or the thinking we had, it was very much re-claiming that or sitting with the fact that growing up, I felt most

Asiel: of the strength and resilience come from femininity and feminine figures around it. I really didn't care much or connect with, you know, masculinity and the performance of masculinity within Mexico. It felt like a very violent place, and it felt like a place that was not for me, but the way that I saw femininity and particular Mexican femininity, I just felt very familiar, and I felt very much kind of at peace and very, you know, grounded and affirming.

Asiel: And it took a long time to express where that was coming from. So it was as much, let's say, an affirmation of that Mexican femininity that I saw growing up, as well as an affirmation of myself and saying there's space within this for me.

Host: Yeah. That, that makes a lot of sense. And is there anything else you want to say to Asiel about the poem Karina?

Karina (mum): Yes.

Karina (mum): Asiel, en tu poema dice: "El amor de una madre sublima la violencia", en que te inspiraste en escribir éstas líneas?

Asiel: So mum’s making reference to one of the opening lines in the poem. That states, you know, “a mother’s love sublimates violence the same way winter gives birth to spring”. And she's asking about the inspiration for the line. And, it's funny because it's almost… I pinched it from Ocean Vuong in the sense that there is a poem that he writes called ‘Head First’,

Asiel: that also kind of deals with the… in this instance, violence and trauma that his mother went through in the Vietnam War and how that led to him as a person, and him who he is. And the resilience that his mother showed and that a lot of the women in his family overall or his lineage

Asiel: showed. And I suppose, how that lineage and how that resilience is then, you know, kind of echoed in his queerness and survival as a queer person of color across. So that line made echoes and made a reference to that particular poem, because I think Ocean Vuong and his first collection influenced a lot of this poetry in particular.

Asiel: And in the notes also states that, you know, that line in particular makes a reference to ‘head first’. So even though it's a very different lived experience, it echoes similar themes.

Host: I think, yeah, I think that sort of experience of identifying with more the women in the family is a very common thing alot of us gay people do feel. And I certainly feel that as well. When I look at my family, it's certainly a lot of the women that I kind of feel a closer kinship with.

Host: I think, yeah, it's not just personal, but it's something that a lot of us feel in the community.

Asiel: Yeah.

Karina (mum): En tu poema hay un párrafo también que dice “habrá días que éste vestido se sentirá pesado, y cerca del hueso” Mi pregunta es, has sentido o sientes pesado pertenecer a la comunidad LGBTIQ+?

Asiel: So mum was asking about the line in the poem that states, you know, “this dress will feel so bone close and heavy”. And whether or not that reflects a sense of burden, perhaps in belonging to the queer community. I didn't necessarily write it from that angle, but more so from the comfort, I guess, that being able to embody one's gender in a way that becomes most natural.

Asiel: You know, has that naturalness, that sensation of, how identity can kind of attach itself to the body and the way that identity is played out. In regards to feeling a burden within the LGBTQA+ community, I think it's complex because

Asiel: as any community, there is obviously nuanced dynamics within the LGBTQ+ community, that can make it challenging at times. And, I mean, I certainly noticed when I moved from Melbourne to Sydney, where Sydney was a bit more, I don't want to use the word superficial, but I guess superficial is the best kind of summary of it.

Asiel: It is a bit more looks oriented, and there was definitely… it brought up a lot of difficult emotions in both how I felt within my body and how my body was perceived or responded to within, you know, quote unquote, kind of queer spaces. And, you know, that has its own set of challenges across. I think there's definitely a lot of our community that could be kinder to one another and to ourselves.

Host: Yes. It's almost like this queer phobia of it's kind of we internalized all that kind of, kind of trauma that a lot of us received, as, you know, in our childhood as well, you know.

Asiel: Yeah. And I mean, certainly stepping into kind of queer spaces when I was younger felt very daunting and very… it brought up a lot of, difficult emotions because all of that rejection and all of that, sense of not belonging or not being worthy of belonging or not being worthy of being there, you know, kind of came up whenever you stepped into these spaces.

Asiel: But at the same time, it is at the end of the day, like also the space that I feel most embraced by. So I suppose it's kind of work that we have to do both within ourselves as individuals, so we don't replicate those dynamics when we are in these spaces. And then as a community, constantly thinking about the way that we could be kind of kinder to one another and more compassionate to one another.

Asiel: Because I think it's very easy to just let yourself get carried on by this, you know, feelings and emotions and not open up the inclusiveness of space that we sometimes, you know, so desperately kind of need.

Karina (mum): Yes.

Relationship with extended family, community and culture

Host: Now I'd like to go back to you sharing who you are with your father and your extended family in Mexico, and how your relationship with community and culture evolved. So how long after telling your mom before you decided it was time to share you are with your father?

Asiel: It took ten years for me to, like, actually explicitly tell him, but I'm not sure if dad actually, like, suspected it or clocked it beforehand because again…

Host: Did he talk to you about that during those ten years?

Karina (mum): I was trying to educate him.

Host: Lay the groundwork first. Hahahaaa

Karina (mum): Yeah exactly.

Host: And after I said, “Asiel you can tell to your Dad”. But he said, “I don't mind”.

Asiel: Yeah, that's true. At some stage, my mom did say, “you can, you know, tell your dad if you want to”. And then I thought, you know, but I don't think I do. In the sense that I didn't think our relationship necessarily was at the point where it would change anything. And I eventually did come out to my dad.

Asiel: Again, on my own terms, and I didn't really give him any options around it. And then started to kind of again build that relationship and build that, like reconnection in a way. But for a very long time, I didn't think I would necessarily ever come out to my dad or would take, you know, much longer.

Asiel: Because I didn't, again, want to conform to that idea of coming out. And if it wasn't going to necessarily make a change in a relationship, then why would you? Until eventually it became kind of necessary. And that's when I told him. And I guess, same with the family in Mexico, it was kind of an act of reconnection to tell them, to form that bridge again, between culture and family that have been separated by like ten years by that stage.

Asiel: And that was also quite a healing experience to be able to tell my extended family, and have that kind of implicit acceptance.

Host: And was that… so you told your dad and then pretty much very close after you told your extended family?

Asiel: I think so, because I think it must have been in like two thousand and... just before we went to Mexico, like 2016-ish.

Host: And did you have to do any work with the extended family after Asiel told them? Did you find there was resistance or anything like that?

Karina (mum): For my family, I am just talking about my side. No resistance at all. Nothing at all. Any comment at all. And I talk very familiarly with my auntie, with my sister about Asiel and his partner. Always talking about Bob. No no, I think everybody accepted.

Host: Do you think…

Asiel: I was going to say... Yeah, that's actually. Yeah, I don't recall necessarily having that conversation with your side of the family, but when we went to Mexico, like last year, your aunties were, you know, have always been very welcoming and they're kind of a generation above, where they would be my grandma's age. And yeah, they were still, again, very welcoming.

Asiel: They've met my partners and they're always yeah, again, it's that implicit acceptance where it’s not stated, but it's also, you know, not questioned or not pushed back or not resisted. It’s just that partners are invited to the family dinner, you know.

Host: Do you think partly it's because your mom was such a strong supporter or advocate for you? They could see and they know that you've been open with your mom for so long, and they could see that there was just acceptance and support there and embrace there?

Asiel: I suppose so. And there's also... No sé como, si tal vez la experiencia con Freddy, cambió un poco de sus opiniones o... o formó tal vez una de sus opiniones? [I don’t know if maybe the experience with Freddie changed some of their opinions a little or... or maybe formed their opinions?]

Karina (mum): I don't think so. I think it's… I want to think it's like, okay, I talk with my family, with so much naturality, like talking for any people, that they just don't say anything. It's like Asiel says, implicit acceptance.

Karina (mum): I probably… probably both yeah contribute to him (being) very welcomed.

Host: What about on…

Karina (mum): No issues, no criticising, no nagging… because sometimes (they can be) “Why you do this? Why you don't say anything?”. Nothing. Hahaa yeah

Host: But do they kind of know you to be very protective of your children as well? Is that why?

Karina (mum): Yeah hahahahaaa probably…

Host: What about on your father's side?

Asiel: On my dad's side, I had really had the conversation with my cousins really. I don't recall having the conversation with any of my other uncles and aunties, even though there's a lot of them. And from there, I think it just kind of snowballed in the sense that once I had the conversations with my cousins, then they told, you know, my aunts and uncles and, you know, my grandma.

Asiel: And, I remember you mentioned that my grandma kind of knew that, you know, I had a partner and she just said, you know, that's the way it is. That's the way it is. I think my grandfather is the only person literally out of, like, the whole family that still doesn’t know. And again, I think, I'm at the stage

Asiel: where that comes from, you know, a very traditional way of thinking and viewing the world. I'm not necessarily there to challenge that. I'm happy to just leave it as is. And, again, I think it would probably damage the relationship more than actually help it. So I'm happy to leave him in his worldview and kind of like, lead my own life without any concerns.

Host: So overwhelmingly most of your family knows and supports you, so…

Asiel: Yeah, I would say so. And yeah I mean, I think from both sides, perhaps from my dad's side in particular, I'm like the first grandson, so there's a lot of, you know, cultural significance to it. So I think there's also a bit of a benefit or privilege that comes in with that because it just is what it is.

Asiel: Yeah. Right.

Karina (mum): From my humble opinion, I think they love him so much. They love Asiel so much that it doesn't matter. Anything. Yeah I think their love is predominant. Stronger than any barrier. Stronger than any… pre-ju….

Asiel: Prejudice.

Karina (mum): Prejudice.

Host: That's great. Great to know. But I do think your fierce support has a lot to do with it. I think in Chinese families as well. I think you by yourself doing anything, it's not legitimized. I feel in Chinese culture, until, like, your parents kind of stand behind you and support you that they will like “okay”.

Host: Someone was just telling me this transgender woman. She just came from Shanghai, and she says that in China, to be able to access transgender (gender affirming*) treatment, your parents had to sign.

Asiel: Even for adults? 

Host: Even for adults yeah.

Karina: Oh wow...

Host: Yeah. So, yeah, I yeah, I think in the Chinese, a lot of diaspora communities, your parents’ public support still means a lot. Yeah whether the community views you as still being in the community and will recognize whatever identity or, that you want to express…

Host: Oh, is there something you want to ask Asiel in Spanish? Yes. Please go ahead.

Karina (mum): Cómo tuviste que lidiar entre querer ser auténtico y complacer a la familia, sobre todo a tus abuelitos, a que se sintieran orgullosos de ti?

Karina (mum): Porque por un lado tienes que cumplir con ciertas expectativas, pero por el otro lado tienes que defender lo tuyo.

Asiel: Mum was asking how I was able to navigate family expectations and you know kind of maintaining both those connections and, and I suppose what's expected to to perform in these, you know, family spaces, while at the same time being, you know, true and authentic to yourself and remaining, I guess, steadfast in who you are as a person. Which again, I think, is a question that a lot of people within the queer community grapple with.

Asiel: You know, that tension of fulfilling family expectations and wanting to be the offspring that their parents or family wanted and ambition for them versus living their kind of own authentic life?

Host: I think there's also a lot of pressure from mainstream queer community, or to kind of pressure us to be, quote unquote, more authentic in our cultural communities. But it's very… it's a lot of pressure for someone who's… for people that's trying to maintain a connection to their cultural community and their culture, and then… having this whole second kind of duty to the queer community of flying the flag.

Host: It's a lot of pressure. Yeah.

Asiel: Yeah. I think there’s expectations on both parts. And the reality is that there's not… within the family, there's aspects of myself that are never going to be visible to them. And that's okay. And that I choose not to, let's say be fully visible in. I don't know… who I am as a person, my desires, my wants, my places where I go, my joys, my etc., etc. across what I choose to share with them.

Asiel: Thankfully, I am at a point of my life where I can choose that very carefully and with lots of consideration and with a sense of inviting them in rather than, you know, having to do it on their terms. On the other hand, similarly, there's aspects of the queer community and cultural aspects of the community that, you know, are never going to be fully understood or seen.

Asiel: So there's this, in a way, sense of incompleteness in both. But at the same time, that's where I guess an internal sense of completeness or wholeness becomes quite important, because if I know where I'm coming from and if I know who I am as a person, and if I'm secure within that, then everything else becomes a lot more manageable, because everything that's shared or everything that's met or not met, I know comes from a deep sense of self and respect of who I am.

Asiel: And everything is done within my boundaries and comforts rather than being forced to do x, y, z or being forced to perform certain expectations from either the queer community or, you know, within the family. I know who I am as a person, and whatever other expectations are not met are for them to deal with. You know, if that makes sense.

Host: Yeah no, it makes complete sense to me. And also, I think it's important to remind people we are different people in different contexts and different circles. I think it's a lot to put on us as queer people, like, you have to be as queer as you are on Oxford Street as you know, when you're in a home cultural context.

Host: Like, I want to kind of enjoy another aspect of myself when I'm with my family, as I'm with my friends. I think we need to give ourselves permission to be different people in different circumstances. Like obviously hiding yourself is not good, but I think being queer in your family and cultural community can look quite different sometimes.

Asiel: Mmm

Host: And doing kind of... being queer or actually kind of being proud of your queerness in that context can look quite different compared to, let's say, in the workplace or like, you know, in the mainstream queer community. And I think we should let ourselves, kind of, explore ourselves, like to be queer in different ways within those contexts.

Host: Yeah.

Asiel: Yeah. And I do have to say it does take time to know where those kind of boundaries are, you know? Because I think you can only approach those spaces, once you have that kind of internal sense of completeness, I suppose, or integration or togetherness. I think it's hard to do when you're younger, and that's where I think a lot of the pressures can really feel quite difficult to navigate when, you know, perhaps I felt quite hurt by the fact that I couldn't show or I perceived that I couldn't show certain aspects of myself to my family.

Asiel: And nothing has changed really. Like I haven't… Nothing has changed in what I share or how I present myself at family dinners, I suppose. But, internally, I know that I don't owe it to them to share it, per se. And I also know that if I share it, I know that it'll be also well-received.

Asiel: But that can only come, I think, with time.

Host: Yeah, it does come with time. Yeah.

Host: And I know that you just mentioned again when you were growing up, you felt that almost oppressive gender expectation. And when you returned in that trip to tell your extended family, did that give you a different perspective or way of seeing Mexican culture this time?

Asiel: Yeah 100%. I again remember going back and and being in Mexico again. And first of all, realizing that this is where I'm from and this is where I belong. And this is what actually feels like home like as soon as I landed in Mexico, it just felt so familiar and so affirming. And there's still a lot of moments, even in today, where I just miss that Mexican-ness, and that culture and that connection to the places and the people and the food and the everything about it.

Asiel: And in that first trip, I also realized that, you know, Mexican culture has changed a long way from when I was growing up, we’re, you know, a lot more visible now. And we're expanding notions of queerness, both within our own culture and country, but also outside of it. And, to me, there's like nothing more affirming than seeing those queer Mexican spaces where it all just kind of comes together.

Asiel: For example, the artist who did the cover (for my book of poetry), Fabián Cháirez, has been reclaiming a lot of Mexican imagery that's both Catholic, that's both, indigenous, that's, you know, classically Mexican and really re-subverting it, and doing some wonderful, interesting things that speak to this shared experience. Like he has a series of, you know, young kids or children, you know, crying on the soccer field, and this beautiful, beautiful kind of Baroque paintings, just capturing this image where I feel like a lot of queer people in Mexico just resonate with that failure of masculinity and feeling the sports field, a place where that would often kind of play out.

Asiel: Or, you know, Lucha Libre and then queering a lot of those scenes, where, you know, it kind of becomes, a masculine drag or a kind of draggy performance of masculinity that's very uniquely Mexican, but also, like, instantly recognisable, you know. So it opened up my own understanding of my own culture and made me realize that there is space for me.

Asiel: So every time I go back, it again just feels so much like home.

Host: And how much do you think, Mexican or generally Latino community in Australia connects with that kind of new wave of new ideas around queerness?

Asiel: It's really hard because I don't think there's a lot of Mexican community here. It's very hard to actually find, you know, Mexican community, period. There's a growing, you know, Latin American, Latinx, Hispanic kind of community. But that comes from a lot of places within Latin America. And while we have that shared language and some cultural shared aspects, I think our own notions of queerness are somewhat kind of different.

Asiel: And that's why, like whenever I meet a queer Mexican person, it's just such a, like a close connection because it's a connection not only to, you know, queerness, but country and culture and what that feels like, and language and being able to talk about all those shared experiences, and being understood, implicitly. Yeah.

Host: And while you're in Australia, have you found, kind of, connection with other Latino queer people, artists...; not necessarily Mexican, that you've kind of found a connection with?

Asiel: Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of people from Colombia and Chile and Venezuela and then Brazil that there's been that shared connection. And I think we through that shared language and I guess through that shared colonial history, there's a lot of shared lived experience. So it's also been quite affirming seeing spaces within Australia, within the LGBTQA+ community here, that are now making more space for, you know, Spanish speaking countries or Spanish speaking people or Latin American people. And creating a little bit more of that connection back to home.