Benjamin Oh

Part 1

Introduction

00:00:00 Host: This was recorded on the lands of the Wangal people of the Eora nation.

[sound of birds calling outside]

00:00:08 Benjamin: I think we need to go the full way. While we saw crucifixions. We saw the bearing of our dignity and our lives and our stories. Well, let's tell the resurrection stories. How we rise up, how those who were hateful rise up from the hate and became loving people and then transformed themselves, their family, because there's so many of those stories. I was lucky to experience how faith and culture can save lives. So I want people to know that there is that, yeah.

[Theme music comes in]

00:00:55 Host: Welcome to stories of coming out and coming home, where we share everyday stories of families from our culturally and linguistically diverse communities on the journey of embracing the LGBTQ plus loved ones. Showing how their support and embrace, strengthens family bonds, strengthens cultural connection, and enables them to thrive and flourish. Stories of belonging told in our own words, our own languages shared with our communities. Stories of coming out and coming home.

00:01:30 Benjamin: My name is Benjamin Oh. I identify as gay and queer. My pronouns are he/them. I come from a Peranakan Malaysian Chinese, and Catholic background. This is my story of coming out and coming home.

00:01:47 Host: Thank you so much for taking the time to have this conversation with me today. I know it's not easy for you and your partner with two young kids to find the time and energy to do this. And I really appreciate that your parents will be joining us in the conversation later as well. So actually, I was thinking back to how we first met, and it was actually when I was first putting together the proposal for this project. I was introduced to you by a mutual friend, Francis, who I believe you worked together on marriage Equality campaign ten years ago. And from the start, you really understood the importance of this project and really advocated for it. And I found out that it was because you've already been working towards the same purpose as this project for more than twenty years. You're the national convenor of the Asian Australian Alliance, and you've been active for many years in various advocacy and support groups for queer religious people, focusing specifically on Chinese Catholics in organizations like Rainbow Catholic Interagency Acceptance and Equal Voices, just to name a few. And when I got to know a little bit more about you, I felt your family's story was one that I really wanted to include in this project. Yeah. So thank you.

00:03:15 Benjamin: Thank you.

00:03:16 Host: Actually, we also have a few things in common in our backgrounds. We both come from Cantonese speaking families. With you from Malaysia, and I was born in Hong Kong.

00:03:28 Host: And my grandad was Malaysian Chinese; Teochew Chinese specifically. And you're from a Catholic family. 

00:03:39 Benjamin: Mhm.

00:03:39 Host: And devout I understand. Though I would never describe myself as religious in my adult life

00:03:46 Benjamin: Mhm.

00:03:47 Host: or even Catholic nowadays. I was brought up in the Catholic church.

00:03:52 Benjamin: Mhm.

00:03:52 Host: I was like an altar boy for a few years or so...

00:03:59 Benjamin: Awww... hahahaaa

00:04:00 Host: so I'm looking forward to sharing our experiences.

00:04:01 Benjamin: Yes.

Growing up in Malaysia and discovering their queerness

00:04:03 Host: So Ben, firstly, could you share more about your cultural background and your faith and religious tradition?

00:04:10 Benjamin: So I come, I come from, uh... yesterday night, my parents and I were just having a chat actually. How, how we assume that our world was, you know... you don't know what you don't know, but... You know, coming from a Peranakan Malaysian Chinese family, ourselves, we are a minority within a minority. So very often we try to blend in to the larger Malaysian Chinese family community. But there are some things that are really distinct that you don't realise until then you're with other Malaysian Chinese, right? Um, so it's quite different because your dietary, um, even just your dining table just sets up very differently. The music that we're listening to. I mean, my parents were just listening to keroncongs, you know, like, like particular repertoire music that is based on the Malay language. Yeah. That is not usual. But for us, it's not, it's usual.

00:05:11 Host: Yeah.

00:05:12 Benjamin: And we will listen to different linguistic music, but that's just part of the family.

00:05:18 Host: Mhm.

00:05:19 Benjamin: But growing up, that's regular, but that's not regular for other Malaysian Chinese.

00:05:27 Host: Can you explain the term Peranakan Chinese?

00:05:30 Benjamin: So Peranakan Chinese are straits Chinese who have interconnection with indigenous and Malay culture. And they have been part of Malaysian history for the best of, I don't know, three, four hundred five hundred years. And so it's the culture and you have to navigate faith and multi-faith and different culture within the relationship, the kinship, and the tradition. So you blend them together. Um, and that has happened, that this has been happening for hundreds of years. So it's not new.

00:06:21 Benjamin: Yeah.

00:06:21 Benjamin: But it's new to a lot of people.

00:06:23 Host: Yeah. I think in Australia people don't know alot about it.

00:06:25 Benjamin: I don't think they quite get that.

00:06:27 Host: No no...

00:06:28 Benjamin: Yeah. And even even in within Malaysia, it's only in the recent decade or two that people have this new understanding, partly because, you know, of globalization and intercultural, intercultural-ation, people have an appreciation. But I remember growing up, you know, a lot of people don't quite get it, because the dominant culture in a culture sets the normative right. And then when you're also Catholic Christian.

00:07:02 Host: Yeah.

00:07:03 Benjamin: That again, puts you in an even smaller minority within that cluster because majority of Malaysian Chinese are not Catholic Christians.

00:07:12 Host: Yeah. Like nowadays, I think there's a movement to evangelical churches, but that is completely different from like a long Catholic relationship in your family.

00:07:21 Benjamin: Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely.

00:07:24 Benjamin: So that's a very different flavour of and also understanding of faith.

00:07:30 Benjamin: Yeah.

00:07:30 Benjamin: And it's not just a chosen identity. It's in your bloodstream.

00:07:34 Benjamin: Yes.

00:07:35 Benjamin: Um, because...

00:07:36 Host: That's as much part of your cultural identity as being Peranakan...

00:07:39 Benjamin: Absolutely. And of course, sometimes in the Western lens, the conversation is you can choose.

00:07:44 Host: Yeah.

00:07:45 Benjamin: Well... not if your entire living, practice, being is so intertwined and also um...

00:08:01 Host: I like the word religious tradition because it does acknowledge the fact it is tradition.

00:08:06 Benjamin: I think in some ways, like, you know, if you live in culture, with culture and people who are very engaged in the conversation of culture and faith, which is all of that intertwined, I don't think there is that... Again, that's a very unique lens, from a highly secular, I think one is one way of looking is highly secularized, but the other one is also highly commodified view of culture, people, faith, and the complexity of it. Because the reality is they are a lot more nuanced and beautifully complex. Because the truth is, you could have a hundred, or you have ten Catholic Christians and Malaysian Chinese come together and they will have a thousand different opinions on one issue. So I think people like to reduce people to a particular... so that it's convenient maybe to play a particular ideology. Because the reality is, once you dig a bit deeper, we are so much more alike than we are different. I think when I was growing up, I think it's always person before identity. So the personhood always came first anyway.

00:09:23 Host: So growing up in Malaysia in a Peranakan Chinese Catholic family and being quite devout, I understand. I'd imagine you wouldn't have that much exposure to LGBT+ people and issues.

00:09:38 Benjamin: I think it's true when I was at that age, at that time, you don't know how to... That people can be many different things, especially when you're younger. You see the obvious, but those that are hidden or not obvious to you, you don't see. So when I was growing up, it's true. You don't see, for example, in the church, you know, I mean, people expressing public expression of affection generally doesn't happen. Only when I grow up further, I realised, oh my gosh, actually there are there are LGBTQ people were always around. But no, I didn't have obvious models. So it can feel incredibly lonely.

00:10:24 Host: How did you first develop an awareness of your sexuality?

00:10:30 Benjamin: Hahaa. Like all gifts. You start with falling in love.

00:10:36 Host: Okay. Hahaa. This was in Malaysia?

00:10:37 Benjamin: Yeah, yeah. I had a crush on one of my best friends. I had a big crush on him and I couldn't figure out what was it, and I couldn't shake it off. And I'm like, why am I so attracted to him? I'm like, I just want to be close to him.

00:11:03 Host: Yeah.

00:11:04 Benjamin: As in like intimate. And of course, one expression of it might be sexual intimacy, but it's more than that. It's one thing to be, I think, from a Christian point of view you say being communion with another person.

00:11:18 Host: Yeah.

00:11:19 Benjamin: Um, and I'm like, I couldn't shake that off. I don't have that feeling for my girlfriend. Why am I having this feeling to this best friend of mine? So I had to struggle. I was struggling with that. So that was, I think, my most intense memory of realising, oh my God, I don't have a word for this.

00:11:39 Host: Yeah. And so this was early nineties.

00:11:44 Benjamin: Yeah yeah yeah.

00:11:45 Host: Yeah. So did you just kind of struggle with it with yourself? Or was there like people that...

00:11:54 Benjamin: Because there was no internet, you only had books, right? Well, but in those days it was you only had books, encyclopedia and the library. Right. So to speak. So whatever that I found, whatever that I found was very technical and it was clinical. And I had the Catechism of the Catholic Church that wasn't very helpful. Um, and I remember, I remember reading for example, in one paragraph, it writes about, you know, how it's an objective disorder. And I'm like, what the hell does that mean? How do you, what is the objective part? And what do they mean by that it's a disorder? Because by that point I've read, you know, with the World Health Organization's definition of disorder. And I'm like, not quite a disorder, clearly. But what is objective about that and what is the term objective about it? So when I delve deeper into that conversation, or at least some of the readings around it, I realised that, oh, I don't think... And also one of the things with the publication of that book, I realised also it was published at a date that was... it has a dated understanding. It hasn't been updated. So from my... from that angle right? I then realised that, oh, information can be dated, oh, ideas can change and people can change with them. Or ideas can change, but people still refuse to accept new understandings. And so for me, that was... I know, to some level, now you look back and go, oh wow, that's a big problem. But at that point, I thought, what a relief. Because that means all of these things can shift and change. And they are a lot more fluid than I thought. They're not set in stone. So at a young age... But I've always loved asking the big questions. And what bigger question is there? It's what's the point of us being here? And what is the point of all of this? And I look to the scientific, but I also look to the philosophical and theological. And I love the high language and the poetic language that is in faith, because it's not as reductionist and it's broad, but it doesn't reduce to just evidence.

00:14:38 Host: But in terms of sharing your experience or struggles, did you share this with other family or people in the church?

00:14:47 Benjamin: Um, I think my... I was very selective with what I share, which part of me with. Which I think one of the things about... I think now I look back... I think some of the religious and the priests might have already known that I was gay before I knew I was gay. Like, or at least I knew what that meant. Who was on... who came, you know, came to me and gave me literature on human sexuality and the morality of that. And at that point in time, even though that I was, I was, um...

00:15:28 Host: I was before your crush. Did you have any idea that...

00:15:31 Benjamin: No, that was during that time. Actually, it was around and during that time, because my crush was also in the same catechism class as me, and I'm like, I was barely hitting puberty yet.

00:15:41 Host: Right.

00:15:42 Benjamin: So they obviously see some character in me that they identify as somehow a bit queer. I remember he was talking about, um, masturbation was talking about homosexuality. Didn't talk much about... He mentioned a bit about abortion.

00:15:57 Host: Yeah.

00:15:58 Benjamin: Mentioned a bit about premarital sex, but he went on about masturbation.

00:16:04 Host: But at the time did you... Like, you didn't know how to frame it that way?

00:16:09 Benjamin: Of course not. No.

00:16:09 Host: Did you take that onto yourself? Or did you already have an understanding...

00:16:13 Benjamin: At that time it was hard because there was then one of the things at a younger age... And this is where conversion ideology and practices are incredibly harmful. See, my parents are very close to me and to a certain extent they get pastoral theology much much better than some of the indoctrinated ideologized clergy. And parents do that well. That's why I think, you know, having parents as part of LGBTQ conversations is so important. But sometimes church ideologies or religious ideologies or even cultural ideologies bypass even loving family and target people. And I think that's where harm and hate is really problematic. So my parents had no idea what kind of conversations I was having.

00:17:06 Host: It's also kind of... it's considered sacred when you have a one-on-one conversation with a priest.

00:17:13 Benjamin: They carry a particular responsibility and place of trust. So you expect them to be tender and knowledgeable. You don't expect them to be ignorant or deliberately ideological.

00:17:27 Host: So there was conversion ideology?

00:17:29 Benjamin: That's right. Absolutely! Because I remember the literature wasn't just Catholic literature. It was enmeshed with... And I remember one of the books... booklet that he had was from Exodus International. So that was... that is the conversion. That was THE... if you like... And that's not even Catholic theology. It was evangelical Protestant, right? But he was saying, you know, but if you fast and pray and go to mass every day... It's a form of shaming. That's right. And guilt and guilting someone and deliberately, in some ways retarding someone's reach towards who they are, or even finding the divine or God because it's every direction. So it's a form of retarding. I don't want to use the word in a bad way, but it's a form of, um, manipulation. You know, you don't allow someone to discern their conscience. You're trying to put a barrier and let them... So. And that really threw a huge thing around because I, to a certain extent, I didn't have a full eating disorder, but I fasted a lot and I lost weight. I remember for a period of time, my parents had no idea. I think now they're only beginning to listen to some of these stories. Um, and partly I don't share with my parents because I don't want them to feel horrible and bad about all of this because they are not responsible for all (any*) of it.

[music interlude]

00:19:28 Benjamin: Now, I think it's important to say that there were also clergy who were whole and wholesome, and they have to work within the cultural dynamics of homophobic heterosexist to be able to build bridges. They always listen first, and not only they listen first, they listen deeply, and they cared for you first. And then they park... even some of them have... They might be struggling even with all the doctrinal stuff. And they themselves might be incredibly, if you like, conservative. But once they realise that, oh, maybe I have no idea. I better shut up.

00:20:08 Host: Yeah.

00:20:08 Benjamin: I think the care of the sacredness of the divine in this person trumps everything else, even of what I've learned. And so I think...

00:20:18 Host: I think that also comes to the, um, the idea of the informed conscience, which I, very much am shaped by. I think that it's not just about listening to your conscience, about informing your conscience. And I think certain religious people or clergy take that to heart and practice that more than others.

00:20:39 Benjamin: That's right, that's right. I think that's why. That's why I mean, in our context, right? I mean, we are in this time after... post Pope Francis. But I think that's why Pope Francis was so attractive to so many people. Because one of the first lines... one of the lines, and it was, I think it was just a throwaway line, which is, you know, when he was lecturing church leaders and said that we are here we are here to help form consciences, not replace them. And now when I think back, there were people who were trying to manipulate that, they're trying to replace consciences.

00:21:18 Host: Whereas they should have been informing their own conscience.

00:21:22 Benjamin: Absolutely. And also be open to the fact that there is more for them to learn than there is for them to teach.

00:21:28 Host: I think that is one lucky thing about going to school that was run by the Jesuit Order in Australia anyway. I know it's not the same everywhere in the world, but it is very much about learning and working with community.

00:21:42 Host: Rather than disseminating teachings. They emphasize a lot about that. They are there to learn and work with the community.

00:21:52 Benjamin: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

00:21:53 Benjamin: I think religious orders, a lot of religious orders, their first calling was to build spiritual communities. So because of that, the spiritual growth and flourishing trumps everything. So they are so much closer to people's hearts and their tender lives rather than, you know, the diocese and structures, which is about order and structure, and then also negotiating power dynamics with the government, all that kind of political games.

00:22:24 Host: So apart from kind of, uh, talking, uh, within like the Catholic sphere, within your family sphere did you struggle with this alone or did you share this with any family members?

00:22:39 Benjamin: So for my family, I had my brother Brian... well, my brother Brian has been amazing as a person because he is um... you talk about informed consciences. He's all about wrestling with the conscience as well. I think my parents, if there's anything that I mean, there's many things, but one of the things that I so appreciate from my parents was they superseded the church; the dominance of at least culture and church or religious cultures or, you know, even our Peranakan Chinese Malaysian Chinese cultures, they supersede all of that. That it is the culture... the faith and the culture is there to support and help your flourishing, not the other way around. So because of that, we had, oh my gosh, around our dining table, really robust conversations. My parents also always had people. I mean, one of the wonderful things about [how] I grew up was our table of hospitality that my parents had. We have all kinds of people all the time randomly popping in. My parents always had priests, clergy, religious lawyers, politicians, teachers. What they thought was that, even they have different opinions to the people they love. And their friends are able to dialogue with them, sometimes debate and then dialogue. But you stick together and you continue to love each other. And as long as you have the relationship and you care for each other. Relationship and personhood trumps everything else. And that is a huge thing. And so my brother, because of that, there's an open way to have fruitful conversations. And so, coming back, for example, my brother Brian, he was always curious, he said that... you're not interested in girls. Like there's all these really wonderful girls around you, but...

00:25:00 Host: But you had a girlfriend at the time though.

00:25:02 Benjamin: But he also know I'm not…

00:25:04 Host: No, he also recognized that... hahahaa

00:25:06 Benjamin: No, he he recognized that I was more interested in in organizing the next liturgy or I'm more interested in organizing the youth council and everything. And then I'm more interested to hang out with my best friend or best friends. And then my girlfriend is very, very low. And then when I had, I remember having love letters. Yeah. Um, love letters. My mother will tell you about jokes like that in my school where my school locker and, and I would have zero… I would get a bit blushed and then I'd go like, oh, okay that's great, and then…

00:25:43 Host: Just throw it to the pile hahaa...

00:25:44 Benjamin: And then Brian, Brian would say, how come you're not interested? And I'm like, I don't know. But I really just wasn't. So Brian, very early on had an inkling like, this is something really odd because I think he hit puberty probably even before, I do not know. But he had a sense of something. But I don't know whether I had internal repression, you know, looking back, but because I thought, you know, it is a prohibited space. I'll just dodge it all together. And because I told you I had a tension that I was holding. I didn't know what to name it, and there was nothing to categorize it at that point. But it's related to being gay or being related to sexuality. So whatever that feeling was that I didn’t have the language [for], I just repressed it. The moment I had a feeling about it, I fasted, I prayed, I go to mass and then I divert my entire energy to everything else. So I excel in everything else. And people will say maybe, maybe some, some of the LGBTQ folks we overcompensate. And we do a lot of stuff to excel. Well, maybe.

00:26:50 Host: Classic overachieving gay person archetype.

00:26:52 Benjamin: Maybe. Maybe one part is we are trying to do. But the other part is, well, the thing is all this energy is that it has to go somewhere.

00:27:01 Host: But when you actually, when you finally realised what it was, did you like, did you share that with your brother when you were in Malaysia?

00:27:10 Benjamin: Brian. There was no specific conversation. Brian just knew that I. I had a particular connection with, um, yeah, my, my, my best friend. And I think he could discern that even with the girlfriend that I love. And I did love, um, the girlfriend because she was just wonderful. And she was, it was not necessarily the same as he understands. He had a clearer sense of sexuality than probably I do, but from a heterosexual angle. But then he, I think something then dawned on him, oh, maybe, you know… but he didn't have the language either. Yeah, yeah.

00:28:03 Host: Or maybe he also recognised that it was not the right time to name it.

00:28:09 Benjamin: But he didn't have the language either. So I think he was clear that he, I think now he clearly didn't have the language either, but that…

00:28:16 Host: But you always felt that he understood you.

00:28:19 Benjamin: Yes. And he was…

00:28:21 Host: Prioritised your personhood rather than any…

00:28:24 Benjamin: But he was also very defensive, I suspect. So he knew there were bullying elements around. But my brother is also one head taller than I am. He's nearly a six footer. I'm the shortest in my family. 

00:28:39 Host: Even at that age?

00:28:41 Benjamin: Yes yes. And this is many years later when we are all adults already, and someone will say someone was saying that he was sharing a story about someone saying that, you know… making a jibe about someone being gay. And my brother turned to this friend of his and said I could be gay. And, and he was just… he was… that was the person that he was. He would stand up to people and, and he was always anti-bullying. So he had this strong sense of social justice. And he made himself a safe place. So strange, right? But he being who he is then also had he he always had, you know, he had other friends who were also were queer. And I think he became an inclusive space and he…

00:29:29 Host: He does remind [me]  a lot about my brother, although he's older than me. So that's what's interesting to me about this dynamic is that he's younger. Yeah, yeah. My brother, in the very same way, he's very protective of me and made sure that… he could see me, could understand everything about me and my sexuality. Um, before I was ready to tell anybody. Yeah and he made sure I knew that he had queer friends and that he was supportive of queer issues years before I was ready to tell him. And he never pushed me either, because he knew that I wasn't ready. So it's really interesting, I think. And my brother is also very charismatic. He's very popular. Okay. When we first migrated here; I was eight, he was nine and at a public school, you know, at North Shore. And within the year people have nominated him to be school captain. Right. I mean, he moved school so he couldn't be. But he's very charismatic and in a very caring way.

00:30:38 Benjamin: Yes, yes, yes.

00:30:39 Host: And always saw the person first. Yes, yes. I know exactly what you're talking about.

00:30:45 Benjamin: Brian sometimes feels shy when I speak like that about him. Well not shy but I think he sees it differently. Yeah. When you speak to Brian, I think he would say it differently. And because I took up leadership positions and stuff like that. Brian… Brian is mischievous and playful, and so he's a lot more fun to be around. I'm just boring. You know, I'm not.

00:31:15 Host: You’re more serious.

00:31:17 Benjamin: Yes. Maybe. Apparently intense. Brian will say, just relax, man. Brian always says, just relax, man. When he says that makes me even more… it doesn't help. And and… but Brian, Brian, Brian always… I always didn't want Brian to feel that… Brian thinks, I think sometimes that, I am looking after him and being protective of him because he was also… sometimes he gets poked fun of because of his bigger stature. So there's a symbiotic thing.

00:31:51 Host: Yeah, that's… that's really, really lovely to hear. I mean, unfortunately, in my case, I believe like all the protectiveness was one way. Hahahaa

00:32:01 Benjamin: Hahaa oh is it? Right, right right right.

00:32:04 I don't know whether you all know the film. Beautiful thing, but it's a UK film, and that was one of the first films that I really related to. I watched it, I thought, oh, I want... I do not know how else to show…. tell Brian.. what is… same sex attraction or gay or, or homosexuality. And Ryan watched the film with me and he's like “oh, it makes sense”.

00:32:32 Host: Yeah, I think maybe he's one of those people that can recognize a common human experience despite the difference, whether it's heterosexual.

00:32:40 Benjamin: That's right. They fell in love. It's a human. Beautiful human. That's right. That's right. It's special to me. So it makes sense. It makes sense. And so I'm like, oh… So talking about Brian being protective, let me tell you how Brian started being protective. He's like, oh, I don't I think… he didn't say in those words, but he's, he's like, oh, we knew that our parents would need to navigate that because they are in even much more repressed environments. And their own upbringing, their own life experiences have taught them. If you are anyway inclined to ‘not heterosexuality’, you're gonna be in trouble. And because my parents are so loving and protective, their adverse reaction is largely, they don't want us to be hurt.

00:33:30 Host: So we also have to put it into context of the times as well. So I guess it's like early nineties, same as me.

00:33:37 Benjamin: HIV AIDS.

00:33:38 Host: Yes. This is coming off the back of the HIV Aids hysteria. I do remember even when I was like five or six in Hong Kong, that was talked about everywhere. So we have to put it into context of that.

00:33:54 Benjamin: And we have loved ones who have died of HIV Aids. Yeah. And we have, um…

00:34:03 Host: In your family?

00:34:05 Benjamin: Yes. Within our extended families. Yeah. Like so… And I… It's not our… I think even navigating that conversation at the moment, um, is a tender one because that's one of the things, one of the hypocrisy and also one of the problems with repression, all of us are poorer for it because actually it could have highlighted our deep humanity with each other. It ended up we are… we are locking something within the closet, within the closet. And then all of us are less human for it. Um, and anyway… but yes, it come at the back of that, and you know how early we're talking about? So Brian's connection is also interesting. So my parents… now I go back in hindsight, my parents had trans friends before I got the understanding of what being trans is. Because they have like now I look back, I have this wonderful auntie who operate a travel… Um, when we call auntie, it's a close family friend. You call them or any adults, respectfully, we call them uncles and aunties. This auntie operated a travel agency and one of the closest friends to my parents. And we always knew that she was different. And she was lovely and kind, and she looked after my parents travel itinerary and was very protective of my parents and was loving with me, with my parents. My parents never quarantined us from her, and she transitioned at a time where there was not that language, that acceptance. She even got married.

00:35:51 Host: Oh, really?

00:35:52 Benjamin: Yes. So cultures, you know, have an ebb and flow. And when historical timelines get weaponized. It's not truthful either, because there were times even in Malaysia where it was much more liberal. When I say liberal, liberal in the sense, we were liberally pastoral with one another. She got married, culturally got married.

00:36:19 Host: Was that whilst you were…

00:36:22 Benjamin: We were young. We were very young. Yeah. And clearly we were kids. Maybe even…

00:36:26 Host: You remember them getting married?

00:36:28 Benjamin: No we didn't….

00:36:29 Host: Oh it was before your time.

00:36:30 Benjamin: But yeah, my parents and… it was just, it was taken as that's okay.

00:36:33 Host: It was a community embrace of that person and their relationship.

00:36:38 Benjamin: And then there is the politics and legislation, all that kind of stuff. I think once politics…

00:36:41 Host: But that’s not your everyday reality.

00:36:42 Benjamin: Correct. And within communities, they find ways to accommodate people they love. You can't hate what you love. So anyway, so I learned, I learned that story. So now in hindsight, when I look at these people… how amazing. Like, actually, LGBTQ people have always been around us. It's just whether we open the eyes of our heart and we open the ears of our heart, then you begin to see, actually, they have always been around us. And I remember my daddy yesterday was talking about people who are single. And he said that… My dad then, we were just talking… My dad then said, well, they might have been gay actually. It's not that because they were… They were not given the op… They were not even given the imagination, let alone the option to imagine a different way of living and being. So I suspect my parents are still reflecting on their own friends and people they love.

00:37:47 Host: Yeah. Even though you were never able to share your sexuality whilst you were in Malaysia, there were so many other ways that there was queerness around. And there were so many signs that your family and community had the imagination to, uh, to accept you and see you, see you as a person.

00:38:08 Benjamin: Oh, yes. That's true. That all of that is true. But there are people who did not have imagination, who would deliberately would say things. For example, I don't know whether you remember when George Michael… they said cruel things and they said things along the lines that, oh, I you know, I used to love his music and stuff like that, but, you know, he turned out to be whatever. And I'm like, I wasn't expecting company. So but… they said it in front of me deliberately.

00:38:35 Host: Yes.

00:38:36 Benjamin: So… but you see, this is the other thing. It's never hard and fast. That same relative or people, family member, they had to journey their own journey. They eventually turned around and also were supportive and kind afterwards. But people… People are… people are people. Yeah. I think that's so it's a lot more nuanced than that, I think. Yeah.

[music interlude]

Finding community against challenges of moving to Australia

00:39:08 Host: I realise we've just… we've still only just covered your time in Malaysia. So let's jump forward in time and let's talk about how you ended up in Australia.

00:39:17 Benjamin: Oh.

00:39:18 Host: When did you come to Australia?

00:39:20 Benjamin: I have… so I have my godparents who, I mean, I [have] family members who were already here, um, and I have my godparents who were here, we have extended families who were already here. So Australia already has some kind of connection, so to speak. Yeah. So it was um uni time and so I landed in Melbourne and I never… I was always so… I connected with, as always… My culture is important to me. My faith is important to me. And one of the… So this is the thing that people think that you could, for example, extricate your faith out. One of the first things that people of faith connect to wherever they go in the world is so you go to your church community. And that's where you meet people knowing that they all are very different. And I think that's where intercultural interfaith dialogue is very important because when you share narratives with one another, you learn to understand one another. Even though you might share different opinions, you can deeply appreciate one another. So when I came here, that was what I connected to.

00:40:32 Host: Was it specifically Chinese Catholic community, or was it generally.

00:40:35 Benjamin: Within the international students community. One of the things that are not spoken much about is how racialized Australia is. Um, international students are one of the most displaced populations, and huge populations in big cities. International students who are displaced generally cop racism at university. We cop it all the time. In Malaysia, we are multilingual. Most Malaysians can speak at least two languages, right? Or somehow two languages. But here it's militantly monolingual and they militantly police your language and your accent.

00:41:23 Host: I think especially at that time.

00:41:25 Benjamin: Yes.

00:41:26 Host: There were just a lot of people that will have the gall to come up to you in a public context. But, um, what was your journey discovering yourself more as a queer person against these multiple other dimensions that are really important to you when you arrived in Australia?

00:41:45 Benjamin: I realised that it wasn't the the LGBTQ inclusive paradise that I was painted in the other media who was homophobic because they often paint that, you know, Australia is… Sydney, Mardi Gras, is everywhere if you like. And so I'm like, when I came, I'm like, where is all the Mardi Gras stuff? Hahaa…

00:42:07 Benjamin: But I realised at that point in time, I realised that, oh, it's only little pockets. You're only allowed little pockets to be loud and you'll be loud at certain forums at different times. It's scheduled in, according to the hegemonic culture. So I realised, oh, you actually have to closet again on that as well. So it was not quite like that. And then I thought that it was progressive in different… You know, I was part of the part of a progressive two progressive parishes, not ‘progressive’. I don't even use that term because it's not very useful because as you say, it's very complex, isn't it? But they were at least, um, broad. And I think I like to use the small word ‘c’ catholic, small c catholic. They were truly… they tried to be inclusive. I don't even like that word because it supposes exclusiveness. Right. But at least they were trying to be outreaching and inclusive and hospitable. And even there, there were terms of references, unspoken terms of reference, of how to act slowly, you know.

00:43:21 Host: So you already were seeking out, kind of, queer friendly spaces

00:43:25 Benjamin: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

00:43:27 Host: Within your cultural and religious context

00:43:29 Benjamin: Yes, yes. So my culture, my cultural connections were through uni, through friends, uh, you doing university life and then also with. Yeah, just different people who you picked up along the way. But the faith part, it was I, because there was the… What was the paper? Melbourne Observer? I can't remember, but there were queer papers around and publications at that time, like printed one like real, real printed stuff. That's right. It was very different days. And I learned of um acceptance Melbourne, the Catholic Ministry that was there and it was pretty quiet already at that point in time. It was not as active in their earlier days. And so there was some connection there, but also with Catholic AIDS ministry, with the parish and the, as part… as I mentioned, some religious orders are a lot more inclusive, like a lot more broad and they are not as sectarian in their view generally of anything. Whether it is human sexuality or… So they have conversations about the role of equality of women in church. Like those are the parishes that I connected with. They will have conversations like that and they will not censoring or self-censoring or censoring one another. So that was where I thought, oh, if these places can have conversations like that, they are safer for me to be a part of. Yeah. You know, when you're queer, your antennas are very very sharpened.

00:45:04 Host: So you weren’t necessarily open about your sexuality, but you were seeking out spaces that you know you will be accepted in.

00:45:10 Benjamin: Totally. And I was open in very particular spaces.

00:45:16 Host: Or specific people.

00:45:17 Benjamin: Absolutely, absolutely. And there are some places you go, like, why would I want to be open here? Because it's not good for me. And it's definitely not good for them because they are not there yet.

00:45:27 Host: No, they're not ready yet.

00:45:28 Benjamin: Yeah. They are not. They haven't been educated or conscious or they haven't arrived at that consciousness yet. So… living a marginalized reality, right. Really can force you to reflect on your values and what you're instilled with. My Por Por, one of my grandmothers, they had really wise things to say on how to be inclusive and be hospitable to people. My grandmother was a business woman in a time where it is frowned upon to work, to lead, let alone be doing well and to be leading. She taught me that you do not need to take on what people impose on you, whether is it they expect you to be prejudicial or they expect you to act in a particular way, you can stand up for inclusive, hospitable and gentleness and kindness all at the same time. So my grandmother taught me what it meant to hold on to your heritage. That yes, there are stuff that are not good and she will admit it herself. And sometimes she would also violate some of them herself. But at the same time, she is also a cultural leader in her own space. And so I learned that you need to distill… you have a responsibility, just like your ancestors did, to distill culture and faith so that you can pass on the best of it down to the next lot of folks.

00:47:22 Host: In terms of in the Western context and in your faith context, were there people within the Catholic tradition that sustained you and…

00:47:34 Benjamin: And yes, I have wonderful Religious sisters, priests, brothers. I mean, of course, my parents. All these are all faith characters and people around who always asked me to…well… You have a right to it; this is yours. And not only your right to it. Your faith is important. Your culture is important.

00:48:03 Host: In respect to, um…

00:48:05 Benjamin: My sexuality. Yeah, I deliberately seek out people who are very justice oriented and they are very pastoral and social justice oriented. So I will seek them out. One of the religious sisters, early days in Melbourne, um… should I name her? She was wonderful because she was also a chaplain. And in, you know, it's not often you get a religious sister as a chaplain. Well, yeah, not as frequent as the male chaplains. Let me just say this. And yeah. And she also organized a multi-faith chaplaincy and this wonderful religious sister. You will also find her on Saturday weekends marching down Swanston Street standing up for refugees in her whole religious habit and, you know, and… I someone like her, you know, I felt safe around her. A priest of a religious community who would speak out to religious authorities who were unkind and would say cruel things to women, to LGBT people. And he would, he would write and he would speak out.

00:49:37 Host: This was in Melbourne.

00:49:38 Benjamin: This was in Melbourne, and he would write. And so when I saw those writings, I then made friends with him because.

00:49:47 Host: And did you discuss later?

00:49:49 Benjamin: Yep. And when I was courting, I introduced boyfriends. I invited my boyfriend to them and said, “this is someone that I'm dating at the moment.”

00:50:02 Host: Okay.

00:50:03 Benjamin: And, and they didn't flinch. I don't know whether internally they were turning. But they weren’t certainly with me. They made me feel safe. And they continue to go like, well, you know, keep holding on to your good values and you know, you are as much an image of God as any as everyone else. So you have a right to be that.

00:50:29 Host: So they were affirming both your queer relationship and your faith at the same time.

00:50:34 Benjamin: Absolutely.

Finding love and inviting his parents in to know their whole self

00:50:35 Host: So obviously since you introduced, romantic partners… so you started meeting other queer people.

00:50:42 Benjamin: Yes.

00:50:43 Host: At that time.

00:50:44 Benjamin: Yes, yes.

00:50:45 Host: And is this around the same time that you met your partner Nam?

00:50:52 Benjamin: Ah Nam. Nam came into a picture that was very different to my… Nam was a surprise for me because I wasn't… You know, because of my engagement with faith and culture and my own community, international students. And I was working different parts of stuff… I wasn't expecting to cross path with Nam. Nam is born and bred here.

00:51:27 Host: Yeah.

00:51:27 Benjamin: He had different… And I have a sense of those who are born here, even though they are second generation or maybe even first generation, who have lived here long enough, have a different sense of my reality. So sometimes I don't go…

00:51:51 Host: You don't expect to form like a deep connection with them.

00:51:53 Benjamin: Yeah, just organically because they have privileges that they don't understand. And they have privileges that certainly they don't understand what the struggles I have. But Nam had some of that sense and that was wonderful as a surprise for me. And Nam has a strong… he has a very strong voice. And he was willing to listen and willing to park aside his assumption as someone who was born a second generation here. Yeah. And I also learned, very soon, that he had a lot of international friends around him. Like. And so that really shifted things. And so he was attentive to how I live a very minoritized reality. Yeah.

00:52:52 Host: And like, from what you said earlier, I know you have a very close and strong connection to your family. Did they know all this about this development and you finding your like, queer self? So this is after you finished uni.

00:53:12 Benjamin: I took up a job in Sydney and that was me finishing uni already and all that kind of stuff. And I told my parents, I'm gonna take on something here and it's going to give me a different trajectory. But what really motivated that? It's not because of the job. I could get a job in Melbourne. I fell in love. But I didn't tell my parents. My mother had some inkling because I…

00:53:39 Host: So this was Nam. So you followed Nam to Sydney?

00:53:44 Benjamin: Well, Nam was from Sydney. Yeah, but I met them in Melbourne. Okay.

00:53:48 Host: And did you tell your brother?

00:53:51 Benjamin: Brian by that time already knew me and knew some of the new courtships that I was in previously. And so… I don't think I made Brian meet people I was courting together with deliberately to check his sense… But [it was] because family is so important to me and Brian is important to me. Yeah. and good friends, some good friends. But Nam came visiting our family and as a friend.

00:54:22 Host: Yes.

00:54:23 Benjamin: And I often have friends. I have guy friends, girlfriends, you know, just friends generally to come and visit my family. My family are very interested in people generally, so I like… and that helped because then because they are open and that really helps. So it wasn't irregular to bring another friend to or bring friends to visit family or holidaying together with family. Yeah.

00:54:53 Host: But when did you finally… how did your parents finally find out the true nature of the relationship with Nam?

00:55:01 Benjamin: My mother had a conversation with me. It was… I remember it was a Saturday evening, because she inquire and she's like… she was saying, I don't know whether there are things you haven't told me about. Something in me clicked and I came up to her and I told her that, you know, I want to, I want to read you a letter now. I wrote a letter that I clipped at the back of my personal Bible. And it was in case… because I live in a geographical distance from them. So if anything happens to me, I've always wanted to tell my parents who I am. I don't want them to learn it from anyone else, and I do not want them to hear say… it's quite… I've seen how these things play out and it's painful on many levels. But when you live on your own, anything can happen. 

[Ben talks about his experience of suicidal ideation in this next section. Please skip to the next chapter if you feel the need to]

00:56:15 Benjamin: The reality was also I have by that point I already have had suicidal ideation a few times and over, and there are, you know, serious thoughts about that. And all of that is hard and painful. And to a certain extent, I shielded it from my loved ones, because it is so hard and complicated and they are not to blame. The whole culture and system enables that kind of oppression that tells you that you don't… you're not worth living and that nothing good can come out of this, or that there is no way of flourishing the way you might dream it to be. So if you can't live your dream and you can't dream anymore to flourish, sometimes there's not much meaning to living if you like.

00:57:15 Host: And you wanted to make sure you shared your internal world with your parents in case that happens.

00:57:22 Benjamin: Yes. And in that letter, one of the clearest sentiments I wanted to have was, none of this is your fault. Because that is the first thing that a lot of us LGBTQ people are told, and our loved ones are told, you are to blame.

00:57:41 Host: You were the one responsible for the mental suffering.

00:57:44 Benjamin: That's right, that's right. The anguish. That's right. And you are the cause of the breakdown of an entire civilization. Sometimes they go as far as that, or you're the cause of the suffering of your parents or the people you love most. So I didn't want them to think that. And in that letter, it wasn't a suicide note, but to a certain extent, it could have served as that. But it was to tell them that you need to know who I am. You need to know how loved you are, and also how loved I did feel. But all of it is also very, very painful. I think that was…

<skip point>

00:58:26 Benjamin: I can't remember what I wrote, but I read that letter to my mother and we broke down crying. I think my mom was on her own at that time. My dad… well my dad might have been traveling and my. And it was a long crying conversation. I knew it was a Saturday. You know why? Because it was then Malaysian time, probably about 4:30 in the evening. And I had an obligation that I was, I think I was scheduled to be a lector to read.

00:58:56 Benjamin: Sunset mass. Saturday mass. And she, my mom, then said that, you know, I think we leave this for now. I need to get ready. I'm about to go for novena on a Saturday. That's a prayer service before evening mass because this is part. We live our faith and none of that was going to get in the way of us, of how we love each other, and how our faith continues to sustain and keep us alive. Because sometimes all LGBTQ folks have, not in my case, but when family abandon you, when you've been fired from your job or you're bullied, no one else understands you. That sacred spiritual strain that your relationship with the spiritual and the divine is the only telephone line to life. I will tell you, the only thing sometimes stopping me was the fact that deep in my conscience. There is this divine spark that says that you were created or you have a purpose and you have a story and sacredness to tell. If you extinguish that, there is literally nothing left to live for. And for people of faith, that is a matter of life and death sometimes. So it's not an optional extra.

01:00:35 Host: Well I'm glad you found that consoling side of your faith.

01:00:41 Benjamin: It's everything that why I… You know, earlier we talked about the work that I do. I survived. I know my friends who did not. Some of them are Malaysians. Some of them are not Malaysian. It doesn't matter who they are, what cultural background [they have]. Some of them have faith, deep faith. But their lives have been extinguished either by themselves or by the homophobia and transphobia that was around.

01:01:14 Benjamin: I was lucky to experience how faith and culture can save lives. So I want people to know that, there is that. Yeah.

[music interlude]

01:01:45 Host: And when did you share your full story with your father?

01:01:53 Benjamin: By that time, by that time, my father has met Nam, I think at least maybe twice, maybe.

01:02:01 Host: And your mom knew at that time already.

01:02:04 Benjamin: My mom knew at that time already. And they had a difficult… They had to work that through themselves. And it's a hard journey.

01:02:12 Host: But you think your dad already observed.

01:02:15 Benjamin: My dad is a very intelligent man, so he… I think deep in him he already… I suspect but he will speak for himself, I suppose. But I think the bit is more… I arrived at a point where I go, I have to tell my father because I do not… Because I love him. The last thing he needs to hear from is he hears it from someone else, or somehow he needs to hear it from me. So when I told him, when I remember it's also on a Saturday. I suppose that's the only time, only day as a worker or whatever, you have time to actually make a call and chat with your family. And I had a chat with my dad and my dad's response was amazing. He said you’re… He said something along the lines of, you always be my son. And I'll always love you. There's nothing, there's nothing, nothing that will get in the way of that. I almost felt that suddenly I had wings. I've never felt... I… You know how you can't remember words, right? But you can remember feelings. I remember in that room, small room, that I was speaking to him from. I felt that room was so big, that I had wings. Suddenly I felt I was floating.

[music interlude]

01:04:07 Host: It was complete, like your whole immediate family, your parents and your brother, now all, kind of, knew your true and full self. Well, beginning to...

'Inviting-in' rather than 'coming-out' in high-context cultures 

01:04:19 Benjamin: This is the thing, right? The thing with this oppressive system of cis hetero sexism structure, patriarchal structure is that it makes us come up a million times to a million, not million times, but, you know, many times to many people who you love. And every time it puts on you as you're the liar. In fact, the system is the one that lies.

01:04:44 Host: That put you in that position.

01:04:45 Benjamin: Correct. They put you in a position that you have to constantly… I think the Western term is ‘coming-out’.

01:04:51 Host: Yeah.

01:04:52 Benjamin: And so all I have been using… I've been saying for us… we can only invite people in because if you come from high context cultures and faith, inviting in is a very, very important process, just as coming-out perhaps is, but it's very different.

01:05:17 Host: I think it more accurately describes our experience because I think in the Western society now, anyway, there is kind of this canon of what it means to be gay. There's a public consciousness of what it means. So when you share that you're gay or queer to someone, they already kind of know what it means in the Western context. But for us in… outside that, sharing that doesn't explain anything yet.

01:05:46 Benjamin: No, not at all.

01:05:48 Host: In your context. In your culture. In your family.

01:05:50 Benjamin: Absolutely. Because the question that they will go next to is, oh, what does it mean then.

01:05:55 Host: It’s only more questions it raises.

01:05:56 Benjamin: That's right. What does it mean then for like… They are interested in the communal paradigm.

01:06:03 Host: Yeah.

01:06:04 Benjamin: And they're also interested in the personal but in relation… not divorced from the communal and the relational. It's not individualistic. It is… Well, because I'm in relationship with you. What does it mean to us? Rather than…

01:06:24 Host: So it's firstly, just inviting someone in your world. And when you kind of share more time and space with them as your real self, that's how they get to know you and understand.

01:06:36 Benjamin: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:06:37 Host: who you are, what it means.

01:06:38 Benjamin: Yes, yes, yes. Because sexuality is not seen as not not that it's not important, but it's not seen as a… It's not seen as something that is important… Let me reframe this. Sexuality is not seen as something SO inherently important to the entirety of who you are. The next bit would be, well, what about all the other aspects, or what does it mean to my relationship to you?

01:07:10 Host: Yes. Yes.

01:07:11 Benjamin: So I think from the high context culture, it's we invite people into our reality, just like how we invite people into what our faith means to us, what our culture means to us.

01:07:22 Host: I think especially in the Western context, some of the identity politics has really helped progress some of the rights. But yes, it just hasn't worked in the same way for us in high context cultures or diasporic communities within those Western contexts.

01:07:36 Benjamin: Correct. Correct. Correct. Because the conversation to a certain extent, you can use the language of dignity. It's very important. Rights are important, but in relation to dignity and personal and communal. But it's not discounting or reducing one over the other. Whereas sometimes the dominant conversation is rights first, but maybe need to expand that a bit more. Right. Yeah. So I think I hope, I wonder whether our experience then can enrich a much more richer way of us all coming out as a human family rather than, you know, just queer people coming out. We can't wait for all the allies to come out and say, what is it like too.

01:08:21 Host: Yes, well, it's a really beautiful way that you've put it in terms of inviting in, and I'm sure that people from different cultures can relate to that.

01:08:30 [Theme music comes in]

01:08:37 Host: Thank you for listening to the first part of the conversation with Benjamin Oh. Part of our Community Storytelling project: Stories of coming out and coming home. Don't miss the next episode, when Ben's parents and partner Nam join the conversation and share how they became part of his journey of queer flourishing with family embrace and deepening relationship with faith and community.

01:09:01 Host: Thank you to Ben and his partner for welcoming us into their home for this conversation. Thank you to Matthew Smallwood, our recordist and editor, and Mark Chamberlain, for composing the beautiful music. And thank you to the City of Sydney for funding this project and Mohan Kumar for managing the project. I'm Victor Wu, a queer storyteller of Cantonese and Teochew Malaysian heritage.

01:09:23 Host: This podcast was produced on the lands of the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. Sovereignty was never ceded. Please subscribe to our YouTube channel @storiesofcomingoutcominghome for more moving stories of family, embrace and join in the conversation. And please get in touch if you want to share your own story of coming out and coming home.

01:09:54 Host: If you've been impacted by any of the issues raised in this episode, please explore the support resources referenced in our show notes.